Lol Coxhill

interviewed by Andrew Brown (August 2000)

So how do you feel now about your biography 'The Bald Soprano', written by Jeff Nuttall …did it make a difference?

Generally I like it. There are some things which are stretched a bit, which amuses me anyway. A lot of people have liked the sections where I comment on anything that Jeff says about me. If it is printed up again I would like to comment on everything he says. Well, maybe leave a few out just for a change. But it's OK. It creates a bit of interest. And I can remind myself of past activities.

I think it's impressive because it does chart jazz history, or at least Jeff's interpretation of it, and there's a lot of your background in there too.

That's the nice thing about it. Jeff has his own views on things and that all gets all wound in with me, which is quite nice.

Do you feel it is an accurate portrayal of your life and the music?

I don't know about an accurate portrayal of it because I don't tell him everything. But I think it is good as it has placed me within this very wide field and it has reminded me of things I had forgotten about other people.

How do you feel about the chapters that Jeff wrote while he was listening to your recordings, those extrapolations - "a literary jazz duet" somebody described them as....

I like them. I can't even necessarily see how some of the music inspires him to say what he does but that's Jeff doing his bit and I like reading them. I do like his work. So its good to be kind of source for something occasionally.

What do you get out of music? Why do you make it?

Difficult question. I am interested in hearing a lot of music. Many different areas. For most of my life I've either sung or played some kind of music. My father traveled a lot in the Royal Navy and as a child I listened to his 78rpm recordings from around the world. Hearing all this music, I decided that I wanted to find something of my own to play.
If it was only possible for me to play in one way I would opt for playing improvised music but as that is not necessary, I like to place myself in situations where I can still sound like myself as an improviser and be part of the overall music. I have been around long enough for people to start thinking more about it for themselves. Yet I am still criticised for seeming to have no base, musically. I think of it as being the same as an actor. If a musician plays in a lot of different situations he is very often criticised for not knowing what he wants to do. If an actor does exactly the same thing with characters then he is a 'character' actor and will probably be awarded an OBE at least ......
People become huge world stars for being able to play any role and others are virtually playing themselves in different situations. In my case, particularly as a musician, if I could only play one thing I'd stick with the improvisation because there are more options. I still occasionally play old standards, but in a more open way and with musicians who are able to play old be-bop tunes that still sound like be-bop but with elements in them that didn't exist at the time when the tunes were written.
But there's always somebody ready to criticise anyone who does one thing then another, then another and it's possible to do this and still sound like the same person doing all the different things, that's what interests me. It's still me in the same way that a character actor is the same actor doing a different thing. For musicians it isn't, well certainly not for people related to jazz or improvised music. It's still criticised and seen as being a weakness, whereas I think that people should make their own choices of what they do and you either like them or you don't.

Regarding the parallel with acting, because obviously you have done a bit of acting too, do you see any other parallels between music and acting?

No, I don't think about that very much. I never have done a great deal of acting, that's another thing that has been misunderstood. Just occasional things when they come up. And of course all the performance art stuff with Jeff Nuttall and Ian Hinchliffe, Diz Willis and numerous others - groups and individuals.

That's somewhat different from acting, isn't it…

If you mean 'straight' acting, yeah. That's a different thing because there is more scope for improvising with these situations, though there are many good actors working in this area.

Obviously you have played with many different lineups. How do you decide who you want to work with.

Well, I don't have a regular working group, but what I have had over the years are two or three different ongoing involvements, but we might not play together for six months anyway. And then there are other things like playing around the London clubs, that's usually with different combinations of people, very often some of the same people involved. I can't think of any regular combination that I would want to have working every week, several times. On the other hand if somebody I want to play with says 'will you do a gig once a week?' or something like that, put in deps if you have to go somewhere else to get some money, then that could go on for a long time. Until recent years many of my ongoing relationships had been more with people who were on the fringe of theatre work. Like my gigs in the Johnny Rondo Trio with David Holland and Colin Wood. We played Dave's tunes and worked a great deal for several years, but then we also played improvised music independently, and together, without the tunes. I worked with Colin Wood who was also in SME and had a long history in improvised music. So even with ongoing situations with specific people the music itself can be changing around. I wouldn't really want to have a regular group that played all the time. Like I have been a member of the Recedents with Roger Turner and Mike Cooper, its electro-accoustic improvised music with anything else we want to try. That's been going on for over ten years, but we manage to average out at about two gigs a year I think. This year we have four. Next year we'll have to have a holiday...
Sometimes it is just very difficult to pull all the people together but there is a basis for working. Roger is playing a lot out of England. Or was, I don't know if he is now. Mike Cooper lives in Italy but goes to Australia and various places. So it is almost impossible for us to play together, but it is actually my favourite working band.

What does the term 'jazz' mean to you now?

It has been around too long to mean just one particular way of playing. It describes so many things, some of the things that are called jazz I don't think are. There are now a lot of improvisers who come from a classical background or from a serious avant-garde background or whatever people choose to call it, so everything is getting jumbled up. There are free improvisers who were originally traditional jazz players. I can't really put a name on the thing as a whole now. If I am told something is 'jazz' I sometimes don't think it is. I am also told something isn't and I think it is. A lot of it is a bit of both - or thereabouts. Next question, please.

That leads me onto the way music is evolving. Where do you see things being in a few years time and do you enjoy the way it changes?

I have no idea what it will be like in a few years time. Pretty much the same I think. I like the crossover situation of people coming from all different sources and working together. On the other hand I admire someone who doesn't want to do that, who wants to just follow one path, stay there, develop it, never become boring to the people who can hear it properly. I don't like crossover for the sake of it. And as far as I am concerned, the links that I have had playing as an improviser within more popular areas of music, I have wanted to do that more in the past than I do now. But occasionally I want to get together with old colleagues.

How do you feel you have contributed to jazz music, culture in general, looking back over your career? What has your contribution been?

Just being one of the many people who do have some kind of dedication, do want to make people aware of others whom they admire and who still - it's important to me to have an identity, liked or not, doesn't matter too much so long as I can survive, so long as I can think 'well, at least I've justified all my Mum's suffering in the early few months'. Not that I'm sure I have of course, but she loved her son, as Mum's do.
Do you see yourself as part of the process of musical evolution and change, among those who are responsible for pushing music forward?
I hadn't thought of it before but in a small way I am - I hope. I'm trying to sound like myself, you know. I'm consciously not copying people who I could copy who are much better than me, but that's their doing, not mine. I'm trying to make something of having bought a saxophone in the first place. Then again I don't criticise people who only want to play someone else's music. That's equally valid for them but not necessarily as important, I don't know. It's the kind of tribute that might offend some originals.
Most people don't like my playing anyway. I think I'm slowly improving but not enough for my own tastes.

Who doesn't like your playing?

I'm not naming names. I don't mean just my playing. Many people like one thing and not another, that's all.

Particularly if you are playing the kind of music that can be quite ‘difficult’, many people like things more well defined and being able to skip around does freak some people out, doesn't it?

Yeah, in some cases it's the people who like my improvised music who can't stand me playing anything that sounds like a melody. And some of the people who like me playing melodies and more conventional jazz actually think it's quite exciting when I leap off into some place where I'm not really supposed to go, as far as they're concerned.

So during one gig it can go both ways?

Yeah, or not, preferably. I don't mind pissing off bigots. I don't do it intentionally, but I don't mind if it happens.

How do you feel about the years you have spent mastering the instrument. Could you have progressed without having all that to build upon?

I could have made progress in a more formal way as a musician just by having learned to play reasonably well, carrying on, getting better at it and doing one thing. But I'm in the position, as a lot of the improvisers are, that I'm best when I'm not thinking about it at all. I do things which I haven't been taught to do. I sometimes make slight adjustments to the instrument so that something will lock and change the pitching and I have to respond to that in a different way. Like, for instance, if there's a stiff key I might make use of the fact to have it half open and that puts the whole range of the instrument 'out'. Then I have to deal with this as part of the improvisation, and change my approach to playing before flicking the key back into the standard position and continuing. Normally I tend not to use this technique during romantic ballads.

And how do you regard people who don't have the knowledge of the standards or don't have the background. People who just play...?

It's alright so long as they're not boring. I don't think I like people who can't really be bothered but there are people who aren't really thinking that they want to be regular working musicians, but are keen to work with others to create improvised music in workshops with help from experienced players and teachers. John Stevens and Veryan Weston have given workshops which I've attended on occasion and enjoyed both as a listener and as a participant.
I don't mind people trying to do something but not being able to so long as they don't think they're clever trying to do it. I know a couple of people, like Diz Willis never learned to play the saxophone formally, but I used to like having him squawk about nicely. So it's an odd situation. Someone who plays nonsensical music just for a short while as part of something is OK, but if they think they're clever doing it, there's a different element, of 'taking the piss' I suppose, that I don't like. On the other hand I've been very patient with people who have been trying their best, as I do.
In improvisation it's possible, maybe even desirable to come with a clean slate musically, though in some many cases, it might be considered not such a good idea.

What are your current activities and plans?

Plans to find some more current activities at the moment, there's nothing much happening. Yeah, I'm not looking for anything in particular. I don't want to take gigs for the sake of it. Mostly to play in improvised situations and some of the best ones are here in London. Just go where the opportunities arise, I think, but not spend a lot of time doing things that don't interest me to get some extra money. I'm not saying I won't have to but yeah, just try to play things that I really want to when they come up. Continue with recordings for various labels.

You have achieved a lot but are there things that you would still like to achieve?

I wouldn't say I have achieved all that much. I'd like to have enough time to improve on the things that I've done so far that I think are OK. I mean I might at some point want to do some writing from specific improvisations of my own. But really just carry on and hopefully get some gigs. At the moment it's 'pay to play' mostly, but I never hustle for work, or, at least, not often.

Are there any people that you have particularly enjoyed working with?

Yes, but so many it's not worth mentioning. Doing so would probably give the wrong impression.

And what about people that you wished you had worked with but never had the chance to?

So many of them as well! I suppose...I can't think really. Yeah, any of the jazz related players or improvisers that I like. Well, some I wouldn't want to play with just because I don't think it would work, but I mean obviously the great players. There are plenty of people who I would never have had the opportunity to play with anyway and I would like to play as myself now, with those people. I like the ongoing-ness of music.
Most of the people that I know, who play improvised music now, have respect for the earlier and continuing jazz innovators and there have been several recordings of collaborations released on earlier and more recent CD labels. One which I particularly like teams Sonny Rollins with Coleman Hawkins. They sound wonderful together with Mr. Rollins' open playing simultaneous with Coleman Hawkins more melodic improvisations. I've read that Mr. Hawkins stated that the other great saxophonist's music was weird and that he didn't understand it, He didn't need to understand it, They sound wonderful together to me. Anyway, he probably did understand it. It was music.

What are your criteria for whether a piece of music or art is successful?

Well, in my own terms if it sounds good to me it's successful. A piece of music doesn't have to be perfect either.

Is there such a thing?

I don't know, I don’t have time to find out, can't concentrate on one thing. I mean there are many records that I love. Some of Lester Young's later stuff where everything's slowed down. Certain records had bad reviews but there are moments that are really beautiful within that. I don't think I can concern myself with criteria on a constant basis.

You are perhaps best known as a soprano saxophonist...

Mostly because I'm lazy...it's also to do with the way that the 'media folk' want people to do just one thing...if anything.

What other musical areas and instruments have you explored?

Well, I do play other saxophones occasionally. I can't say I'm an advanced electronics player but I do use electronic equipment, often in relation to the saxophone.

What form does that take?

In improvising situations just various pedals and effects units, mini-theremin, sound expanders and stuff like that. In fact I almost exclusively use that stuff with the Recedents. I work within a limited area and know what I'm doing, then bring in a few things that I'm not overly familiar with and work with those as well in an improvising situation.

Could you imagine if the saxophone family had never been invented, another family of instruments you might have taken up?

Quite possibly, I didn't start as a soprano player, I had an alto first then I managed to get a lovely old Selmer for seven quid and really liked that. When I joined Kevin Ayers Band I played tenor saxophone with effects units. I also did a lot of busking. That's how I could buy the instruments in the first place. And a soprano was just such an obvious instrument for carrying around Europe. However I am considering playing less saxophone and working more with electronics eventually. Though I do have a lot to learn. There's still time, I think.

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